Curse

draxynnic · Jun 16, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Yes, as stated above, most of the Mesmer, Necro and Monk damage effects ignore armour. This is a big advantage in high-end PvE, where I have a tendency to have a higher mesmer/elementalist ratio with Aeron as the average enemy level rises (in fact, lately I've been experimenting with a Necro secondary instead of the Ele secondary, and branching into Monk as well may also be on the cards).

While the Ritualist is a different class, comparing Channelling to elementalist lines does seem more like an oranges and lemons comparison than apples to oranges - yes, they're different, but they are at least similar. In fact, I think I've seen people commenting in the 'Elementalists need a buff' threads that the Ritualist is muscling in on one of the areas where the Elementalists had been surviving - that of laying wards to protect an area - and looking with some jealousy at the Ritualist skills that allow a synergy to be built with the laying of area defenses (wards and spirits) with spiking.

In the case of Clamor of Souls... meh. I've heard it said that one of the functions of elites is to allow a profession to get a taste of something they wouldn't normally in a given attribute line. In the case of the Ritualist and Clamor, that seems to be the ability to nuke an area without a short response time (as opposed to Spirit Rift) or a long recharge (Cruel Was Daoshen). For that function, it seems to do it's job, in a manner that fits with the general flavour of the Ritualist.

Simply put, how is it balanced? It's balanced because it gives an effective PBAOE to the Ritualist without having to take an Elementalist secondary and invest points in Fire. A direct comparison would indicate you're better off with Flame Burst, but there may well be builds where the ability to have another secondary - or simply to have spare attribute points not required to go into Fire - may well be worth an elite slot and a few conditions to its use.

Senketsou · Jun 16, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Gold you brought a very good point up, and I can completely understand what you mean... However I dont want to get any further in to this topic as I could bring up my good points, you could bring up more good points and it would get nowhere, as ANet would do nothing about it in the end of this...

lightblade · Jun 17, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

/signed

...currently there is no place in PvE for ritualists...

their healing is not as good as monk and nuking is not as good as elementists

Ensign · Jun 17, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I honestly don't think it matters how you tweak the skill as long as the profession needs Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting to function near maximum efficiency. It would basically need to be so good that you could make a character for it alone, and that isn't going to happen...so who cares.

Peace,
-CxE

Arcador · Jun 17, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Well, if you take that out (since many elites won't see good days in pvp), lets continue the debate :P

Rieselle · Jun 17, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Compare flame burst to many Ele spells, including elites. You're probably picking one of the only good fire spells to compare with.

arcanemacabre · Jun 17, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

/signed

...currently there is no place in PvE for ritualists...

their healing is not as good as monk and nuking is not as good as elementists

So, don't use them for healing or nuking...

Spirits all the way, baby!

Thom · Jun 17, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

If there is room for ritualists in PvP, I would expect that intellegent pve players would find space. That said their is no room for Clamor on any serious ritualists bar, so this discussion is really moot.

Poison Ivy · Jun 17, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

However this is an elite, we should put that in mind.

I wouldn't mind nurfing Clamor just a bit so it doesn't look so pathetic.

Senketsou · Jun 17, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

However this is an elite, we should put that in mind.

I wouldn't mind nurfing Clamor just a bit so it doesn't look so pathetic.

Hmmmm...... lol

There actually is a very good role for ritualists as well in pve... Just have to play the cards right, however for a channeling rit in pve is kindof like using a pure inspiration mesmer in pve? in a sense... however in pvp i still feel that if used correctly a channeling rit is a very very deadly aoe master... if used correctly, you can spike a target for more than 600 damage in a mere second... 250 of that damage is unconditional... find any other class to do that kind of damage, regardless it has conditions and a lengthy recharge, however if used correctly in pvp that damage may be all you need to change the tides of a gvg.... reason I dislike this skill is because for the kind of damage you can deal as a channeling rit, this is rather weak

and yes there are a select few useless elites... and clamor is now one of them, which is the only damage dealing elite for channeling rits.... aside from grasping which is the same skill for other classes that are however a normal skill, haha...

B Ephekt · Jun 17, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

/signed

...currently there is no place in PvE for ritualists...

their healing is not as good as monk and nuking is not as good as elementists

That's because 1) Ritualists are not Monks 2) Ritualists are are not Elementalists. It's nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand the role a ritualist plays.

I had no problem getting my pve Ritualist through Factions, I simply advertised myself as a protection Ritualist. Smart players always welcomed a spirit Ritualist, because they knew how much damage they can negate. The people who hated on them were just ignored, because I'd rather not play with dumb people in the first place.

Ensign · Jun 17, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Ritualists are better than a 3rd monk in many situations, and could be better than the 2nd monk as well if the build is right for it. Monk + Rit would be more than enough backline for a competent team in most 8 man PvE instances.

None of which has anything to do with Clamor of Souls, but just getting that out there.

Helios · Jun 17, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Oh noes!!! Earthshaker doesn't do as much damage as Meteor!!! Buff Earthshaker!!!/end sarcasm

Morgoth the dark · Jun 17, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

/signed

...currently there is no place in PvE for ritualists...

their healing is not as good as monk and nuking is not as good as elementists

o rly?

try Minion bomber

i cleared out almost anything i encountered with it

Jestah · Jun 17, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Ritualists are not a damage heavy class by default like elementalists are, so it makes sense that ele skills would do more damage.

ANet give professions certain skills based on their background and what they are expected to specialise in. Giving a class that is seen to be non-offensive an offensive elite but then gimping it's effectiveness is like giving an Elementalist a Sword but then making it 4 inches long to account for the fact it's not their speciality. My point is you either make it worthwhile or DON'T give them the skill full stop.

By your logic monks shouldn't complain about their smiting skills not matching up to an Ele's but anyone who has played dual smite knows they have the potential to vasty outclass an Eles damage.

OMGzorz a healer can outdamage an ele!!!1111 and they're not even damage heavy by default

B Ephekt · Jun 18, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestah

By your logic monks shouldn't complain about their smiting skills not matching up to an Ele's but anyone who has played dual smite knows they have the potential to vasty outclass an Eles damage.

Yes, all because of one pvp build. Nice logic, lol.

Quote:

OMGzorz a healer can outdamage an ele!!!1111 and they're not even damage heavy by default

GG missing my point.

Rieselle · Jun 18, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestah

ANet give professions certain skills based on their background and what they are expected to specialise in. Giving a class that is seen to be non-offensive an offensive elite but then gimping it's effectiveness is like giving an Elementalist a Sword but then making it 4 inches long to account for the fact it's not their speciality. My point is you either make it worthwhile or DON'T give them the skill full stop.

You're entering into the world of "buff useless elites" or even "buff useless skills" which is a whole different kettle of fish to just "buff clamour to be better than flame burst".

Besides, if we're talking pve, not all classes are available at all times, so sometimes you have to make do with what you have. Perhaps on a particular mission you just happen to have 4 rits and no eles. You could wait until an ele comes along, or you can spec a rit or two to be sub-par nukers just to boost the party's damage output a little. Since it's pve, being "optimal" doesnt matter all that much. Having the rit be a nuker that's inferior to an Ele might be better in that situation than having another spirit rit, so in that case something like clamour might see play. Besides, Clamour is not strictly a bad skill, just worse than most of the alternatives. Dont forget about the many elites and skills that are just plain useless no matter what

frojack · Jun 18, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

I imagine if nobody uses it, it might get buffed. On the other hand if a lot of people do, forget it. It won't happen.
I capped it the other day. It's a nice elite. You can get your energy to about 72 with 2 +15 items. with such a high pool of energy you can go for the that huge damage spike. On a softie, this is scary...

Channeling Strike 138
Clomor 122 (Clamour: Dodgy american english. Meh...)
Daoshen 122
Ancestors 106

Total is about 488. That is in an ideal world though. Channeling takes 2 seconds to cast, and Clamour (and impressive) 1 second extra. They will probably start to mitigate after Channeling. Best bet is to use Clamour to start the spike. Damage is only 350, but you could always try dropping further suppressive fire afterwards with Channeling Strike, Spirit Boon Strike, etc. Or even use Nightmare Weapon (in your face RoF

).
After all that however, you'll be a bit useless

becauseof the -2 energy regen. If you pre-cast Daoshen pretty early, I suppose you could use a normal equipment set. Then switch in emergencies or something. Perhaps even run back to your spirit ally (or fellow 'spirited' Rit) and steal energy with Spirit Siphon

.

Clamour is an ok skill. It's elite argument I guess is the 1 second cast time and the Daoshen class damage (to a single enemy). If it's recharge was dropped (5-8 seconds) and/or it's energy cost was dropped to 5, it would be more worthy of elite status. It is currently just ok I suppose.

Now Signet of Spirits on the other hand, is a bit rubbish. Conditional energy recharge every 20 seconds AND a 1 second cast? Great idea! If Channeling magic had more than 1 spirit _-_. I'd actually like my cap sig back please, so I can get Grasping Was Kuurong instead.
The condition should be applied to 'extra' energy, after it has returned a base amount to you. Something like 1....10 energy, +1...4 per spirit or something. Then it could keep it's crappy 20 second recharge and it's 1 second cast. As just like a lot of cast time signets, it get's ambushed by Rust and destryed by Ignorance.

Arkantos · Jun 18, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Ritualist are not elementalist... so what's your point?

What he said.

Evilsod · Jun 18, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

That's because 1) Ritualists are not Monks 2) Ritualists are are not Elementalists. It's nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand the role a ritualist plays.

I had no problem getting my pve Ritualist through Factions, I simply advertised myself as a protection Ritualist. Smart players always welcomed a spirit Ritualist, because they knew how much damage they can negate. The people who hated on them were just ignored, because I'd rather not play with dumb people in the first place.

So what your saying is no-one should use the new classes? Ritualists aren't monks? No shit. Ritualists aren't eles, whered you come up with this stuff!?

Just because they're not meant to be dealing tons of damage doesn't mean they shouldn't be aload to with the odd spell, specially when the spell in question is elite. I guess we should just ignore Assassins too. They're not Warriors (tanks/damage dealers) and they're not Rangers either (ignoring Critical Barragers).

Why do you seem to think we should be comparing the new professions to the old ones and instantly dismissing them as shit in anything that even remotely comes close to there roles? We all know Eles suck as damage dealers in the long run, are you more scared that the Ritualist might actually beat them in terms of damage?